The eighth guest chat returns to the scene picture
Beijing time September 1, 2001 (Saturday) 10: 00-12: 00. Guest: Alistair Cockburn. The world's top OO experts, the world's most outstanding technology and book awards of Jolt Productivity Award, "Writing Effective Use Cases", this book can be downloaded here: http://www.umlforum.com/zippdf / WritInGeffectiveucs.zip. There is also a famous book article: "Surviving Object-Oriented Projects" "Software Development As a Cooperative Game" "Structuring Use Case with Goals"
Communication focus: oo, project management.
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Hi, Professor, So Early! i Have Not Had my Breakfast Yet! (09:09)
Acockburn said to everyone: We said 19:00, And it is 19:00 Here in Salt Lake City - Is IT Really Only 9:00 there? (09:12)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Glad to see you, mr. acockburn (09:12)
Acockburn said to everyone: if you want, i Have a lot of work to do - i can go and do work for another Hour and discount back1 (09:13)
Xkfy said to everyone: Hi, Professor, It's Glad To Meet you (09:13)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Yes, please be busy with your work number and discount back 30 mins latter? (09:14)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: ok. I have i Have ONLY 2 Hours I Can Be Here. SO I Shall Come Back In 30 Minutes and Beere for 2 Hours Then. Is That OK? (09:15)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: It's 9 O'clock Morning Now in China (09:15)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: We Will Wait You Until 10:00 (09:15)
ACOCKBURN said to Qingzuozhou: AH, THEN We Did Our Math Wrong - We Though 1900 Here Would Be 1000 there. (09:15)
ACOCKBURN said: ok. I Shall Be Back at 10:00 Your Time. Bye ... (09:16)
Xkfy said to Acockburn: Wait for you (09:17)
Qingzuozhou said to Umlchina: you are the president here, you shouth presidething questions to ask mr. acid (09:18)
Qingzuozhou said to Umlchina: Then we can read the talk word while we are talking with mr. acockburn (09:19)
Xkfy said to Umlchina: We need inform more people, i'll post something on Our bbs (09:19) Fuzhong said to everyone: Can you speak Chinese? (09:21)
Qingzuozhou said: Yes, xkfy is right. You Should Post The ad. on some popular website (09:21)
Fuzhong said to everyone: MR Alistair Cockburn IS here? (09:24)
Qingzuozhou said to UMLChina: I think you also shop be a intepreter with some guys from china who speak Chinese and their english area not very good (09:24)
Xkfy said to Umlchina: I'D Glad to Be The Intepreter, IF Umlchina Agree (09:28)
Qingzuozhou said to xkfy: good (09:29)
Umlchina said to xkfy: Thank you! It is great! (09:29)
NiX00000 said to everyone: Is an expert? (09:59)
Qingzuozhou said to busy_girl: i feel this is not very far farmiliar with uml (10:00)
HDW1978 said to everyone: Hi all! (10:00)
Busy_girl said to qingzuozhou: why? (10:00)
Macson said to everyone: WHEN WILL Alistair Cockburn COME? (10:00)
NiX00000 smiling and said to everyone: Is there an OO expert today? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (10:00)
Qingzuozhou said to busy_girl: Only Studied it from book and no enperiences with uml in projects (10:00)
Chenf said to everyone: Who is late (10:00)
CHENF said to everyone: Is the expert come? (10:01)
NiX00000 smiling and said to everyone: Is the expert? (10:02)
Busy_girl said to qingzuozhou: But I modeling a system with it (10:02)
Umlchina said to everyone: Thank you, Mr. Cockburn will arrive later, just when he made a mistake, leaving for a while (10:02)
NiX00000 smiling and said to everyone: study OO and UML together. Welcome to Q 69559361 (10:02)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Hello Again (10:02)
WANGYuanjian smiled and said to Bucolic: Thanks.i Have Already Sent Out an email. (10:03)
Qingzuozhou said to Busy_Girl: Hi, It's 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn Here? (10:03)
Macson said to everyone: How to model a system with rotional? (10:03)
Umlchina said to everyone: Chat color agreed: (10:03)
NiX00000 smiling, said to everyone: Hello, Acockburn (10:03)
Qingzuozhou said to everyone: hi, it's 10:00 in China. Mr. Acockburn Here ?? (10:03)
HDW1978 said to everyone: HMM, What's the topic Today? (10:04) Acockburn to UMLChina: Yes, He's Here, Good Morning Everyone (10:04)
Fuzhong said to everyone: Good moring. (10:04)
NiX00000 smiling, talking to Acockburn: Can you tell us how to build Use Cases in a project? (10:04)
NiX00000 smiling, said to Acockburn: How to build it Effectively (10:04)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Hi, IT's Liveliness At this room now! (10:04)
NiX00000 smiling, talking to Acockburn: Thanks (10:04)
Busy_girl is very happy to say to everyone: Welcome! ... ... (10:05)
Triol said to Acockburn: Welcome! (10:05)
Umlchina said to everyone: Question and Participation: Grassland Blue, guest answered and host: Authentic boy, talk each other: absolute black (10:05)
Acockburn says: You mean you Would Like me TO REWRITE MY BOOK Online During this chat session? (10:05)
Umlchina said to everyone: please talk in english! (10:05)
WANGYuanjian smiled and said to Bucolic: Maybe On The Way. (10:05)
Macson said to everyone: Very Slowly (10:06)
Acockburn said to NIX00000: How About We Start With Some Simple Questions, and Find Where The Questions Should Go To .. (10:06)
NiX00000 smiling, said to Acockburn: :-), no, in my phactice, I am offen confused by the use case. (10:06)
NiX00000 smiling, said to Acockburn: I don't know how to devide the whole function of business Into Effective Use case. (10:06)
Altob said to everyone: Hello (10:06)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Can you tell US THE DIFERENCES BETWEEN UML for Projects and Products? (10:06)
Fuzhong said to everyone: Mr. Acockburn, How can I Abstract The Use Cases and the Actors. (10:06)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: I Have a Question: WE Make Mistake When Using Use Cases, What Is The Most CommON Mistake Which We Development Teams make? (10:07)
Acockburn said to NiX00000: Topic: Use Cases: a Use Case Is A Text Story Describing What a System Should Do for a Person (10:07)
NiX00000 smiling, talking to Acockburn: OK, Can you tell us how long do you in this field. (10:07)
Fuzhong said to everyone: Mr. Acockburn, How can I Abstract The Use Cases and the Actors. (10:07) Acockburn said to Umlchina: The Most Common Mistake Is To Make Too Detailed (10:07)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: People Put The Ui Design INTO The Use Case (I'll Write Uc for Use Case) (10:08)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: And that is wrong. There isa ui designer who shouth the uc and then design the ui fromthat. (10:08)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: if You Put The Ui Design Into The UC, THE USE Case Is Not Requirements, IT IS A Description of The Screen. (10:08)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: How does the user case be optimized? (10:09)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: a Use Case Is Sort of a Story. I have never written one with more Than 9 Stes in it. (10:09)
HDW1978 said to everyone: But Sometimes, User asked for 'Beautiful ui' (10:09)
Boss_ch said to everyone: Any Tools for ui design? (10:09)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: if You Have More Than 9 Steps, The Either The User Iterface Design Is Showing Up or The Steps Are Too Detailed. (10:09)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: i Find That Almost Every Company I VIT HAS Long, Detailed, Boring Use Cass. (10:10)
Xkfy said to everyone: Something is Wrong? (10:10)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Right. "Beautiful ui" - ask YourSelf - Whose Job Is THAT? (10:10)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: I s That the Job of the Person Writing The * BehaviORAL Requirements * for the system, ... (10:11)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: SO, You Mean THE UC Is Someway THE FUNCTION MODULE? (10:11)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: OR is That The Job of a Person Who Read A Short Description of What THE SYSTEM MUST "Do", And Who Then Designs a beautiful ui design. (10:11)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: ... The point is, That UI design is "design". Use copy is for "requirements" (10:11)
NiX00000 smiling, talking to Acockburn: How to devide the big use case, what is the idea? (10:11) Acockburn said to HDW1978: ... don't put design Into the Requirements. Keep The Requirements for Only What "Must "be there. (10:12)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: a Use case is like a function module, but * as seen from the user's side * (10:12)
Fuzhong said to everyone: Yes. (10:12)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: ask: what is the user real trying to * accountPLISH *? (10:12)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: Don't you think the ui design Must comply the request? (10:13)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: How Many Uses in a system is appropriate? (10:13)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Write One Use Case to show A User Using The System To Accomplish Something Relevant And Important to Them. (10:13)
SMILINGLEO said to Acockburn: WHEN THE UC WAS DONE, What Step Will Be The next? (10:13)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Therefore, The name of the use copy must be a verb phrase, Saying What Someone Wants to Accomplish. (10:13)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: Use the uc to construct a 'black-box'? (10:13)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Yes, Let's Stay on this Topic for A bit, it is a good one. The Ui Design Must Comply withthe Re (10:14)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: The Distinction I wish to pass along is The distinction BetWeen Requirements and design. (10:14)
NiX00000 smiling, talking to Acockburn: Mr. Burn, I Think if You Can Give a Sample, That We can understand Well. (10:14)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: I know Some Knowledge, and can you (10:15)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Requirements Means The System Must Have It. (10:15)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Design Means the designers choose it. (10:15)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: ENSAMPLE? (10:15)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: It is a matter of who gets to make the decision. (10:15)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: How About The Mine Game in Windows? (10:15)
bucolic said acockburn: sometime the user do not know the requirement clearly, when show them the UI, he will give some good suggestions.how to resolved it (10:15) fuzhong said acockburn:. I know some knowledge, and Can you ensample? (10:15)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: (Yes, Make the System a Black Box, And Never Refer to What ITS Internal Structure IS) (10:15)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: if you have resperse a project to write, how do Write the use case? (10:15)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Good qustions, all. (10:16)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Let's Back Up ... The Way to Find The answer, Questions Is To ask this: (10:16)
KT133 said to everyone: But what the sequence Diagram and Collabration Diagram SHOULD DO? MR ACOCK? (10:16)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: ... who gets to make the decision? (10:16)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: "Design Means The Designers Choose It", "Requirements Means The System Must Have IT", So Great !! (10:16)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: (Leave Out UML, Rose, And All Diagrams for a minute ... if you do't know what you are try to express, they can't help you) (10:16)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: Requirement Is The Job of Analysis, SO Analysis CAN't Mixed with design? (10:17)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 1: You ask some uses what the They wouldile the system to do. (10:17)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 2. They tell you. Those Are Now Requirements. (10:17)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 3. But They don't really know the meaning of what the asked for. (10:17)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Sponsors Is Storkhold? (10:18)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: ... SO You Build Some Prototypes, or Draw Pictures on Papers, And Help The Undwight What Their Choices Are Allowed To BE. (10:18)
Ee96pyg said to everyone: How can I get a full case>? Not Draft in umlchina.com! (10:18) Acockburn said to HDW1978: (Yes sponsor is stakeholder) (10:18)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 2-3 Repeat, you and the user / sponsor go back and forth deciding what the system shouth do. (10:19)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IT Means I WILL BEGIN A UI Design? (10:19)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 4. Ok, for Some Portion of the Requirements, you and the finally istem shouth is to what the system shouth do. (10:19)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: Your Text Is Like The Book Said, But, Can You Give US A Detail Sample? MR, BURN. (10:19)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: ... Now Two Types of designers get started. The Ui Designer and the program designer. (10:20)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 4a. The Ui Designer Works Out An Easy-To-Learn, Fast-to-Use Ui Design That Users CAN Accept and Use. (10:20)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Then Should I Keep The Ui Confirmed by Customer? Or Just The Requirement? (10:20)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: I Want to Do in Some Projects with you, SO I Think I Will Learn Muck. (10:20)
HDW1978 is said to Acockburn: But, During Prototype Building, Some Design (May Beall) Have Been Made! (10:21)
Busy_girl is very happy to say to Acockburn: What is the arm of model? is required or code? (10:21)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Step 4b. The Program Designer Starts Working on The Internal Structure of The Program (10:21)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: (if My Text Now Is Just Like The Book, Then You Will Know That There Many Examples in The Book, and i can ask you to read those) (10:21)
SMILINGLEO said to Acockburn: You Mean The Programmer CAN Start Working at ONCE, WHEN THE PROTOTYPE THETED NOW? (10:21)
NiX00000 said to EE96PYG: What do you mean? (10:22)
acockburn said bucolic: Yes, doing prototypes IS doing UI design and there is nothing wrong with doing it with the users (10:22) acockburn of bucolic says:. ... or showing them to the users and learning what they like and Don't Like. (10:22)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... The Also Get To Finally Accept Or Reject That Design, Since They Are Going To Use it. (10:23)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... Some Friends of Mine Say That "Acceptance Tests" Are The Final Requirements! (10:23)
SMILINGLEO said to Acockburn: if So, What time to do with detail design? (10:23)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Back to Use Cases, for a moment ... The Ui-independent description of what the system must do, so the ui design (10:24)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: What's the standards for FiHishing A UC?? (10:24)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IF I get the Correct Requirement with Ptototypes, How I DEAL with THE PROTOTYPES? (10:24)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... Can change, Even While the descirption of what the system must do stays constant. (10:24)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Abandon It? Or Reuse IT in the next design? (10:24)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: I like to do everything concurrently. (10:25)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: First, Enough Requirements to understand what the users are means at. (10:26)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Then Some Paper Prototyping, or Programming Prototyping, So Give The And Me Some Feedback ... (10:26)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: How Can You Evaluate a Good UC or Bad Uc? (10:26)
SE_CN said to Acockburn: Hello (10:26)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... as to what theies what what. (10:26)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Acceptance Tests, IT Means i Have Implement The Requirements? The Customer make a acceptance test (10:26)
acockburn said bucolic:. At that point, we have done some requirements, some UI design, some program design (10:26) acockburn to said bucolic: Once the users are happy, both the UI designer and the programmer have a lot of Work to do ... (10:27)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... so The user can move ONTO Specifying Another Part of The System with another pair of people. (10:27)
QingzuoZhou said to Acockburn: I see. But I know Many UCS IS Not Useful for Design. How can we avoid That? (10:28)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Detailed Design Happens Once The Program Designer Gets Serious About Making The Design Work. (10:28)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: You Can Either throw the prototypes away - if they were no good, or keep the, if it is good. (10:28)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: a Use copy is finished in one of two Ways, depending on a sales. (10:28)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: For A Small, Local Project, IT IS Finished - No Matter How Messy It Is - When Everyone Understands What It is trying to express. (10:29)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: About The Detail Level for A UC, Can You Give me a suggestion? (10:29)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: when you think about the oo, you do not think About the program,'m pool in english. (10:29)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ON A Large, Complicated Project (Military, Some Financial Institution, IT IS Finished When (10:29)
KT133 says to Acockburn: What the sequence diagram should do properly? And not to oddail? (10:29)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: a) The list of use copy names list all the goals the users have (10:29)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: if Separate The Ui Designer and System Designer, How do they work it Smoothly? (10:29)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: b) Each Use Case Captures All The Error Conditions That Can Arise During Its Operation. (10:30)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: IF Someone is not skill in Program Language, Can He Design with o? (10:30) Bucolic said: The List Inculde The Stakeholder's Requests? (10:30)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: You NEED AS MANY USE Cases as there. exactly what many. (10:30)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: How Many Is That? Well, Different for Different Systems. 20 or 70 IS OK. I worked on one with 200. (10:31)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: I know People Who Have Worked On Some Systems with 1,000 (yikes!) (10:31)
Ee96pyg said to everyone: Can you tell me Some Keywords About The evolution of Method to Capture System? (10:31)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Yeah, in Fact, The Error Condition Can Be List Completly. (10:31)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn:: Can you tell me some keywords about the evolution of method to capture system (10:32)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Sorry Can't list (10:32)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Let's Leave Use Cases for a little while. You have the book online there. (10:32)
RjCludy said to Acockburn: Can you tell me how to jue the user case's granularity is good? Thank you. (10:32)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: You Mean That We Should Finish A Uses and the begin another? (10:32)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Topic, Oo Design: It is actually hard to design without know know Knowing the io language. (10:32)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: You Mean That We Should Finish A Uses and the begin noother? (10:33)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: I Program in Smalltalk, And Some Amount IN C , and not much in java, and not at all in clos. (10:33)
Unlchina said to everyone: Finish the Meeting, Everyone (10:33)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: why? (10:33)
Umlchina said to everyone: UNLCHINA IS Not Umlchina, please (10:33)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Yeah, The Use Cases's Amount Is Relative with The code of line? (10:33)
acockburn said fuzhong: My can design a good Smalltalk design, a medium C design, a mediocre Java design and a crummy CLOS design (10:33) acockburn to fuzhong said:.. It is like building a building with different materials (10 : 34)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: if You know how to work with bricks or with concrete and steel. (10:34)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: please answer my quest. (10:34)
QingzuoZhou said to Acockburn: IF I Develop a Software Product, The Requirment Is from Myself Or My Knowledge. At this Situation, How About The UC? (10:34)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: The Shapes of Buildings You Design with The Different Materials Is Very Different. (10:34)
Hacker_jiang said to everyone: Why does nobody speak? (10:35)
AM2000 said to everyone: ?? (10:35)
Xkfy said to Acockburn: Can you comment at the project management in the ERP (10:35)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: SO One Must Master Many Language to DEAL WITH All Kinds of Projects? (10:35)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: The Shapes of Buildings You Design with the Different Materials Is Very Different ?? (10:35)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: What is the massials? (10:36)
Acockburn said to NIX00000: NIX - We sprent a lot of time on use case .... Now let's talk about design for a bit. (10:36)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: AND THE SIZE OF Building? i means if smalltalk can make a huge system, but other 帖子? (10:36)
KT133 says to Acockburn: But how to use uml to design the project using jsp, php ... these Sse b / s? (10:36)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Buildings ... Please look around your city. Some Buildings Are Brick, Some Wood, Some Concrete, Steel and Glass. (10:37)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Their Shapes Are Quite Different. (10:37)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: i see. (10:37)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: OK, Go ON, I am Just Watching. (10:37)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: OR IF CAN Builder, But It's Not AS Robust As Smalltalk? (10:37) DYFJT smile, said to Acockburn: i am a beginner of uml.i do not know how to do from analyysis to design .what shop i do? can you help me? I see my question is very fool, but I need .. (10:37)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: in Fact The Very Possibility of What Shape Building You Can Build Depends Very Much On What Material You Choose To Use. (10:37)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Similarly, Scuptors Use Different Materials: Clay, Stone, Others. (10:38)
HDW1978 said to Acockburn: I Think Java Is The Material That Can Build Everything (10:38)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: When Someone Decides to work from a block of marble, They Must Be Very Careful to Arrange The Weight and Thickness Carefully, (10:38)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: I Want to Know Which Fields The Ideas of Use Case Have Come from. (10:38)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: SO That The Piece Holds Together. (10:38)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IF I Use a Robust Meterial, The building will be robust. and proteming? (10:38)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: Design Can Ignore Language? (10:39)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: When the Initial Design Is Finished, Progrmmers Begin to Code for It. But Programmers Find Many Unfitting in Design. How can I do for what? (10:39)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: When Someone Builds a Metal Armature or Mesh, And the Adds Clay To It, They Can make Many Changes Very Fast, And Create Completely Different Shapes with It. (10:39)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: I Means Diffnent Program Language (10:39)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: OK, Back to Software. (10:39)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: C is a Brittle Material, Like Stone. (10:39)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Changed My Design or ask program change His Mind? (10:39)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Your Class Hierarchy Has To Be Carefully Desgned. You canNot Change It Easily. (10:40) ACOCKBURN said to Fuzhong: There Are Particular Inheritance Rules. (10:40)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: The Result Is A Particular Sort of Design, Very Common Across C Programs. (10:40)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Smalltalk, on the other hand, is like group - Very easy to change. (10:40)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Which Language Do You Perfer? SmallTalk? (10:40)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: People Who Write in SmallTalk Changes Their Designs All The Time. (10:40)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Also, There Arefi Rules About The inheritance hierarchy, So the structure is difference. (10:41)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Java Is A Combination of SmallTalk and C , So the Design Shape Is Somewhere In Between (10:41)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: Clos Has Even Looser Rules That Smalltalk. And so on. (10:41)
Acockburn said to Fuzhong: this is the long answer to your qustions, About "Can Someone Who Doesn't Know The Language Do An Oo Design?" (10:42)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: DIFFERENT LANGUAGE NEED DIFFERENT DESIGN? FOR EXAMPLE C and Java? (10:42)
Xiang2ky smiling, said to Acockburn: So What About C #? (10:42)
RjCludy said to Acockburn: CAN U Tell me How to juge the user case's granularity is best? Thank you very much. (10:42)
ACOCKBURN said: Good Question. All designs have missakes in them. (10:42)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: In a Visual Modeling Tool, Such As Rational Rose, We can not put the system boundary Box on the use-case diagram. System Boundary is totally missing from the diagram. IS (10:43)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: IT a right kice? (10:43)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Tell US Something About That (10:43)
ACOCKBURN said: if you set up your project Team So That A Master "Designer" Makes All The Decisions, And a Program "Only" programs them, then ... (10:43) Fuzhong to Acockburn said: Thanks. 10:43)
Rick1126 said to everyone: Hi, First com here (10:43)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: ... The Programmer Will Discover The Designer's Mistake, But Not Be Aable To FIX THEM. (10:43)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: For That Reason, I Prefer to have each person, response for their own design and programmintg. (10:44)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IT Means Designer Should Do Some Program? (10:44)
Zwweric smiling and said to everyone: could you say something about Testing? About auto-testing? I'm sorry.my English is pool! (10:45)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: The one has two or more role (10:45)
ACOCKBURN said: THEN, WHEN THE Programmer Finds The Design Mistake He (SHE) Simply Fixes It. (10:45)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Buth How To Assure The Design Of Different Person Work Smoothly (10:45)
Snow on Acockburn: Would You Like Tell ME why you disagree Rational Method So Much? (10:45)
ACOCKBURN said: Yes, IT Means the Designer Should Do Some Programming. I Have Never Worked ON A Project Which Had A Pure "Designer" WHO DID NOT Program. (10:45)
Dystudy said to everyone: How to talk to with uers, i feel trouble when I Talk to Wiht User (10:45)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: But it is not acid with the request of cmm (10:45)
Acockburn said: i Have Heard About Such Projects, But I Have Not Heard Good News About Such Projects. (10:46)
Fuzhong said to Umlchina: Please help. I have a problem. I can't translate: Is the foreign country in 10 years or 20 years or longer, what is the software industry? (10:46)
Xkfy said to Acockburn: But we need the master (10:46)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: In Fact in a Big System It's Impossible One People To Finish It. (10:46)
acockburn said qingzuozhou: There are just too many strange mistakes to make and it takes the programmer too long to explain them to the designer (10:46) umlchina said acockburn:. In a modeling tool such as Rational Rose, we can ' T Put The System Boundary Box ON A Use-Case Diagram The Diagram. Is IS IT A Right Choice? (10:46)
QingzuoZhou said to Acockburn: Yes. When DiffRenet Role for DiffRenent People, It's Hard to Control for the project. (10:47)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Maybe Design and Program WITH SAME PERSON IS A METHOD OF XP? (10:47)
ACOCKBURN says: What We do with senior designer / programmers, IS Give The Hardest Part of TEH System To Design, And Have The CHECK The Work of TEH Junior Designer / Programmmers. (10:47)
Fuzhong said to umlchina: such as software development process? (10:47)
DYFJT smiles with Acockburn: As a beginner, Need i Learn UML with RUP ?? (10:47)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: But Many Management Ask That! (10:47)
Dystudy said to Acockburn: How to Talk to with Uers, I Feel Trouble When I Talk to Wiht User (10:47)
Snow on Umlchina: I Think You Just Can Do That. Try to Customize Your Toolbar (10:47)
Fuzhong said to UMLCHINA: Oh, try. (10:47)
DYFJT smiles with Acockburn: Can you help me? (10:48)
ACOCKBURN says: And The Give The Junior Designer / Program WMALLER, SIMPLER PIECES OF THE SYSTEM To Design and Program. (10:48)
Zwweric smiles, said to Acockburn: Could you say Something About Rational Robot? (10:48)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: I think you are very right. (10:48)
Acockburn said: Yes, I Disagree with the cmm quite a bit (and with with the use of uml, too: -) (10:48)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Samller, Simpler Pieces, Piece Can Relative with Use Case, 1 by 1? (10:49)
ACOCKBURN says: So there out to be quite a Topic there! (10:49)
nix00000 said acockburn:? How to cooperate each other (10:49) acockburn to qingzuozhou said: I have the thought that programming is a skill and a craft, like any other ... sewing (tailoring), building, painting, woodworking ... (10:50)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: When I Join Project, i offten be confused by Some Standards Such as cmm / ISO9001 (10:50)
ACOCKBURN: The Successful Project Teams I Visit Are Built Around The Skills of The Individuals, And Their Teamwork (10:50)
ACOCKBURN said: if you don't have good, no amount of cmm process or uml modeling will save the project. (10:50)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: WITH PSP AND TSP To Build A Good Team? (10:51)
ACOCKBURN said to qingzuozhou: on the other hand
ACOCKBURN said: Both process and modeling are useful ... but best in small quantities. (10:51)
ACOCKBURN said: The UML Note ... But I do Object Whenagers Think That The Can Replace Program Design With Just Teh Uml Model. (10:52)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: I have another Question.Why The SA (STRUCTURE AnalySE) PAST AND OO NOW COME INTO BEING ON BROAD NOT IN CHINESE? (10:52)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Modeling Is Served with IMPLEMENT, IF You Have Good IMPLEMENT, NO NEED for MODULING? (10:52)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: this is about the software condition. (10:52)
Jambol said to Acockburn: Is IT Necessary That Software Engineer Become Domain Expert when designs and analyse? (10:53)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: I see, your points help me a lot (10:53)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: Please Introduce Some Characters of Sucessful Teams You Feel. (10:53)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: Hi, Could You Explain That Question About Sa and Oo A Bit More? (10:53) Nix00000 Say: You Mean Everyone in TEAM SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SKILLS ABOUT MODELING? (10:53)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: OK, New Topic: Characters on successful team. (10:53)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: Oo Have Memory Then Have Life (10:54)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: for what? (10:54)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: sa for what? (10:54)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: # 1. if you don't have some project before, it is much harner to succeed with this project. (10:55)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: The all has good skills !!! (10:55)
Snow is said to Acockburn: ... tehn, Would You like US? (10:55)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: EXPERENCE IS VERY IMPORTANT? (10:55)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: a Person WHO HAS SUCCEEDEDED BEFORE Remembers How The Got Around The Problems Last Time. (10:55)
Acockburn said: So this is a most important person to have on the team. (10:55)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: I Think Technology Has Be There Now and the, why be found on Broad.i Says this, Because I want to know how can I do so what can stand ahead. (10:56)
Acockburn to Ee96pyg said: for small projects, this person is usually the team lead, does the MOST DIFFICULT Part of THE Design, (10:56)
HDW1978 said to everyone: What if Theture TWO PERSON SUCCEEDED BUT HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERENCE? (10:56)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: ... Watches the Quality of Work of the OtherPeople, Negotiates with the user, (10:56)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: in Fact in China WE Are Short of Those Important Persons (10:56)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: ... builds the schedules ... and doesn't get musse sleep. (10:56)
Acockburn said: if You Have Two of these People, The Load is Not So Terrible. Otherwise this Person Works 60-90 Hours Each Week. (10:57) EE96PYG said to Ee96pyg: Thanks, I am Listening (10: 57)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: if You Give Him (Her) A Few Medium or Beginning People To Help. (10:57)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: NOTICE THELLS Development. (10:57)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Sometime if one has to management the project, He Will Lost the time to make design, how to resolve? (10:57)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: How we can Still Get Start WHEN We get No Person Who Has Succeded Before, or if Has Experience Before? (10:57)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: if you have a smart, inexperienced Person, This Person Will Learn Fast, And Soon (10:58)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: Become a medum-experienced Person and be quite helpful. (10:58)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: i Have Another Question.How to use ie technology. For example, i Have a system developed before. Now i want to upgrade to new platform with oo (10:58)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: if you are unlucky, and no one isteest Person Will Grow The Fastest and Become The Technical LEADER. (10:58)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: You will Have to develop Such a Person. (10:59)
Acockburn said to Ee96pyg: Question: How To Reduce The Load on The Team Lead? ... Answer, Assign as posible. (10:59)
HDW1978 said to everyone: a Team WITHOUT a Leader Will Doomed to five (10:59)
Acockburn said to EE96PYG: Find a project Manager to Watch Schedules, Inter-Person Dependencies, Money, Furniture. (11:00)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: IF REWRITE All Code, The cost is too high. if not, how Reuse the old results? (11:00)
acockburn said ee96pyg: Assign pieces of work to people who are just learning ... even if they are 3 times as slow, sometimes the project will still go better (11:00) fuzhong said acockburn:. Some books says that the Interest Is Very Important In Software, How The Conditions On Broad, And How Do The Work? I Want To Talk About Project Manage. (11:00)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IT Means The Team Leader Is The Same Person As Project Manager? (11:01)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: if there is no experienced Person, THEN You Really Are Relying on The inexperienced people. (11:01)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: This Does happen, but not as offen as the opposite ... That The People Just Go Around and Around, WITHOUT PRODUCING SOMETHING. (11:02)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Can Follow The Way Recorded in The Book? (11:02)
Acockburn to HDW1978: this is the Hazard of Too Much Modeling ... You Can Happily Model for 6 Months, And Never Know That The Design Won't work. (11:02)
Acockburn said to HDW1978: Better to build a sales. (11:02)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: Thank You Very Much (11:02)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: My Book Surviving Object Oriented Project Tells of What i Learned by Interviewing About 20 Project Teams, (11:03)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: and then applying what..
Bucolic said to Acockburn: I Think You are Perfer to have help. (11:03)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: The Ideas In That Book Really Work - They were told to me by successful teams, i Tried Them Myself. (11:04)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: "Prototype" is a Word I stay aff.ay from. (11:04)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Can I Purchase this book? (11:04)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: The point is not to "prototype", but to get "feedback" (11:04) Charles_y said to Acockburn: Where to find your book, is it on stock now? (11:04)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: The Problem with the word "prototype" is that number knows if it will be thrown away or not (11:05)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: I Generally Don't Like Throwaway Prototypes, Unless They Are Made Out of Paper. (11:05)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Because it if Is Made with a Programming Language, The Sponsors Won't let you throw it away! (11:05)
RjCludy said to Acockburn: Can you tell me how to jue the user case's granularity is best ?? Thank you very much! (11:05)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: SO i almost never use the word prototype. (11:06)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: OH, The Your "prototype" can change to product. (11:06)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Insted, Build a Very Small Piece of The System. (11:06)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Build IT Correctly, Full Production Strength. (11:06)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: THE MOST CONFUSING PROBLEM IS Where to start? (11:06)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Now it is not a prototype. it is an "increment", a piece of the final system. (11:06)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: You Add ONTO The Increment, SO That You Throw Away (Waste) Very Little. (11:07)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: SHOULD you tell me your email? Communion is not ended today. (11:07)
Bucolic said: OH, Our Problem is the prototype is uncoRRECT, THEN we have to abandon it. (11:07)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Incremental Growth Is Better Than Throway Prototyping (Except When the Prototype IS Made of Paper) (11:07)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Both Provide the real important think; feedback. (11:08)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Charles_y: nice question. (11:08)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: When I Got The Feedback, SHOULD IRESIGN SOME USE Case or Just Change Those IMPLEMENT? (11:08) Acockburn said: WHERE to start? (11:09)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: The 3 Criteria for Starting: (11:09)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: - It Should Provide (a tiny amount of) Value to the users. (11:09)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: - It Should Be Possible To Build in 2 Months. (11:09)
Acockburn said to Charles_y: - It Should Be Quite Easy. (11:10)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: if You Build Something, Small, Easy, a little bit Useful, in 2 Months, (11:10)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Then Your users and sponsors will know you are doing the thing good, (11:10)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: And The Team Will Have Practice Actually Producing a Product. (11:11)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Both of Those isly Important. (11:11)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: How do you think of the normal of xp? (11:11)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Once You Have Something Small and useful, you shouth see if you can Find the Worst Problem Facing You, (11:11)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: and see if you can conquer it. You get another 2 months. (11:11)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Why in slient? (11:11)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: The Way to Find What To Build Is To Build Two Lists: (11:12)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: What TECHNOLOGIES ARE GoING to Be Used. (11:12)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: You Then Choose The Easiest Thing That Will Show Some Value, And The Hardest Thing, That Will Kill Your Project. (11:13)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Does That Help You with your question? (11:13)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: XP: you will notice That Xp does all these Things I say. (11:13)
Charles_y said: Yes, Thank you, But How I you have no easy project? (11:13)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: SO I think XP is Very Good, Except That You Must Also Produce Some Documentation, (11:14) Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... Either Along The Way OR After. (11:14)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Yeah, I Found IT, SO i ask this question. (11:14)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: But if you produce no documentation, The Project Will Be in Trouble With 6 Months of It Being Delivered. (11:14)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: En, But To Develop The Big Project, XP CAN't Work. (11:14)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: please help me - what do you mean if you have no ready project? (11:15)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: Documentation Means Communication? (11:15)
Charles_Y said to Acockburn: Can you tell me where to buy? book you exercioned? (11:15)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Bucolic: please tell me what you mean by "big" Project, and why xp can't Work for it? (11:15)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Thanks, I Understand What you mean now (11:15)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: A Big Program, We Perfer to use rup. (11:16)
Snow on Acockburn: Argee 2 Month and Easy (11:16)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: I think You Mean I Should Find A Easy Part, And Work on It (11:16)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: I don't live in Beijing, so I can't say where to buty the book. ask umlchina, Who is translatingthe book insto chinese (11:16)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: Or Documentation Means Communication and design Both? (11:16)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Yesthat It What I Mean ('I Think You Mean I Should Find A Easy Part, And Work On It ") (11:17)
QingzuoZhou said to Acockburn: i Have A Software Based to J2EE. Would You Give Me Some Suggestiuons? (11:17)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: IF a project Team Has More Than 10, It's NOT Effective with XP, It's My THOUGHT. (11:17)
Bucolic said: more 10 minutes (11:18) acockburn said: in this case, documentation mens something you can store, and retrieve 6 Months Later. can be on paper or online. (11:18)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: IT IS A VERY LARGE SYSTEM. Where do I start from? (11:18)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Right. XP Only Works with Up to 12 Developers Sitting AT 6 Workstations in 1 room. (11:18)
ACOCKBURN said to Bucolic: But you have to Take Into Account, Those 12 Programmers Will Probably Produce The Same Amount of System As 35 Programmers (11:19)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Is IT Enoutg to Document Only with uml? (11:19)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... WHO Are Not Sitting in The Same Room and Are Trying to use rup and uml. (11:19)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: SO "BIG" is a bit of a different word with xp. (11:19)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: The Project I Visited, 10 Programmers Did in One Year What 26 Had failed to do the previous year. (11:20)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Enough. Sorry Type Mistaken (11:20)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: So Be Careful, There "BIG" Problems and There "BIG" teams. (11:20)
Hacker_jiang said to Acockburn: How to manage a system's documentation? (11:20)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: "BIG" Teams Offen Are So IneffInt That A Small Team Working Efficiently Can do The Same Work. (11:20)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: However, Your Point Is Still ... At some point theere will be a system there 12 XP people in a room cannot build. (11:21)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: At that point, One Must Split The Team, Use Some XP Practices, Replace Other Ons ... (11:21)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: You are Right, But Maybe The Schedual or the size of project, we have to use more people. (11:21)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: .. Perhaps TEH Resul IS XP, Perhaps NOT. I thinkburn (11:21) Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... But Many of the XP Practices Can Still BE Useful Along The Way. (11:22)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: You are right. (11:22)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: i Have Never Seen It Sufficient To Document Only with UML (11:22)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: There is Things People Want to "Say" to each other, That They want to say in Ordinary Language. (11:23)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: ITS Documents Are ENOUGH? (11:23)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: ... Such as "I'm really want to make this look a lot like a pizza delivery system, so that's why my design looks the way it does." (11:23)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: You Mean Sometime We Shouldn't Follow A Template To Make A Document? (11:24)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: I don't know enough about j2ee to be useful, sorry. (11:24)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Just Record What I shop Record. (11:24)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Ok New Topic: Documentation (11:24)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: What is your opion About some use carated "create ***", "read ***", "Update ***", "delete ***" (11:25)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: this is a different tiring, but I'll do what i can (11:25)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Rup probably permits All and every Kind of Documentation Known To Man (Does It Include Video? Probably) (11:25)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: You Know in Rup, IT Difine Some Document Template. (11:25)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: Documentation is The Kernel, All in Software? (11:26)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Sometimes I Want to Follow It to make Document. (11:26)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Create / Retrieve / Update / delete Use Case Case CRUD USE CASES) (11:26) Bucolic said to Acockburn said: But I find some of itm area NOT USEful. (11:26 )
Gigix said to everyone: Hello to everybody. (11:26)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: (i Try to Write All Four in One Case, To Reduce the Number of Use Cases We Have to TRACK. (11:26)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: (One of My Friends Really Dislikes That I do That. She Likes To Have the All Separate, (11:27)
GIGIX said to everyone: How do you do? mr. cockburn. (11:27)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: (So That She Can TRACK TRALOPMENT, AND Security Issues for Each Separately (11:27)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: (Each of US Thinks The Other Person is doing it wheng: -) (11:28)
Dengzh said to everyone: Hello Everyone (11:28)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: (But That's OK, BECAUSE WE Both Know How To Make Projects Successful in The end!) (11:28)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Another Problem, How to TRACK The Use Case. (11:28)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: Back to Documentation. (11:28)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: rup defines many templates. That is good. (11:28)
ACOCKBURN said to Umlchina: But if you try to use the the, there is bag. (11:28)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: They Give You A "Library" of Templates. (11:29)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: when Go the the the library, you don't try to read all the books, (11:29)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: It means i shop Trim The Document Templates (11:29)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: When You Go To The Store To Buy Some Legal Forms, You Don't Buy All of THEM. (11:29)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: You Read What You need to read, you buy what you need to buy. (11:29)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: The Same with Document Templates. (11:30)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: You Use the ones you need. You Leave The Others in TEH RUP LIBRARY. (11:30)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: of course, you realize, We Just Came Back to Skill Again. (11:30) Bucolic said: i am Afraid I think it Needn't Read or Buy, But in Fact It Should Read or Buy (11:30)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: It Takes Some Judgement and Some Practice to Decide Which Ones You NEED. (11:30)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: As I Know, There Many Documents NO Body See The MAIN WHEN THE PROJECT FINISHED. Which shouth be ducomntized? (11:30)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: if You Take Too Many, You Slow Down The Project, WITHOUT Particularly Doing it any good. (11:31)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: i prefer to takefer, and let people decide the nesed more. (11:31)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Most Useful Documentation Seem to Be The Following: (11:31)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: if really need, then add? (11:31)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: UI - The Flow and Connection Between Screens (Use a Sort of State Machine or Statechart To Show this) (11:32)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Many Documents Are Produced by The Software Enginnering. (11:32)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Professor, Your Answer Is Not for Me - Just Click The Right Person (11:32)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Architecture: Use Components and their interacts. Add asence of text to each major component to show it its purpose in life (11:32)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: You Know Now The Project with Web Page IS Popular, Can I Use Static Web Page to Present The Ui? (11:32)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: Oo Design: The Class Diagram, And A Few Sample Sequence Charts. (11:33)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Not Too Many Sequence Charts, Because The get out of date.com (11:33)
qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: But Many of Them Are No Useful. on The Other Side, When I Need Maintenance The System, I Also Didn't Find Thing Whic I Need. (11:33)
acockburn said umlchina: (using the web page - Yes use anything and everything that speeds your work and communicates with your readers) (11:34) acockburn to umlchina said:. Database: Database Schema, or entity-relationship-diagram (11 : 34)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Sometimes I can get the operation of class from sequence charts. (11:34)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Requirements: Use Cases Required Data Formats Crossing The System Boundaries. (11:34)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: Architecture: Connections to other systems. (11:35)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: (Correct - I like to design Directly in Sequence Charts - Theh Help Me Through The Behavior) (11:35)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Architecture: There Should Be a Short (1-5 pages) Document of text and some drawings in which the architect or let designer (11:36)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: ... "Explains" in Words How Thesis. (11:36)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: ... these Words Fill in All The Little Gaps of Expression That Fall Through The UML Diagrams. (11:37)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: in General.if Architecture Should Design By Person? (11:37)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Sorry, Bucolic, I Was Answer Your Questions All That Time, DDIDN't Notice That My Target Address Was Naming Umlchina. (11:38)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Beg Your Pardon. (11:38)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Most People Say Only One Person, But I Was ON A 40Person Project, and we buy three of US as an architecture team, and it worked Fine. (11:39)
Bucolic said: sorry. (11:39)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: SO I Think it can be done. (11:39)
Acockburn said to everyone: OK, 20 Minutes Left. What is the next topic, or what topic do you want to return to? (11:41)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Any Other's Question? (11:41)
bucolic said acockburn: can I ask the last question (11:41) qingzuozhou said acockburn:? when I use UML express the requirement, should I throw away the old technology such as flow-chart, ER digram etc (11?: 41)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: In a Modeling Tool Such As Rational Rose, We can't put the system boundary Box on a use-case diagram. System Boundary is missing from the diagram. Is IS IT A Right Choice? (11:42)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: Interesting You Say That About The Use Case Diagram. (11:42)
NiX00000 said to Acockburn: The detail design of uc. (11:42)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Tell the Differenceing Between Uc and The Old Expressing Methods for Requirements (11:43)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: I Didn't Know That Rose Doesn't show the system boundary. (11:43)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Personally, I don't Care, But My Friend With Whom I Disagree About Crud Use Cases (11:43)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: really gets upsethen there Boundary Line isn n't there (Her name you susan lilly)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: On 10 Mistakes in Writing Uses? That Was One of Them) (11:43)
Ee96pyg said to Acockburn: Can You Talk About Some Keywords About evolution of use case? (11:44)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: I'm Afraid to say anything to negative about rose, (11:44)
Umlchina said to everyone: Yes (11:44)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Yes (11:44)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Particularly Since I don't Specialize In Case Tools ... (11:44)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: But in My Travels, I Have Not Heard Anyone Recommend Rose Other Other Tools. (11:44)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: i Have, HoWever, Heard People Rose, (11:45)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: And i Have Heard Many Complaints About Rose. (11:45)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: So Take Your Chances. (11:45)
acockburn said umlchina: These days, what i hear people saying is that Together / J is a good tool (11:45) bucolic said acockburn: I find it is difficult to convert analysis model to design model with rup, can you give ME SOME SUGGESTION? (11:45)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Tell US About Other Tools (11:45)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: and that it really permits you to move back and forth between the uml diagram and the code. (11:45)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Thanks! (11:45)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: To Bothe Umlchina and Bucolic: You Will Find It Revealing, In The Context of these Questions, (11:46)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: That i Have * Never * Used Rational Rose. (11:46)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: TOGETHER / J's Website URL? (11:46)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: why not? Because I don't draw many uml diagrams. (11:46)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: i Draw Them on Whiteboard (Printiing Whiteboards Preference (11:47)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: www.togethersoft.com? (11:47)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Those I Do Draw, I Draw By Hand, Or In Visio, Which Is a Pure Drawing Too, (11:47)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: Very Cheap and Very Easy To Use, And It Products No Code Whatsoever. (11:47)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Ever Since 1992, Up THROUGH AND INCLUDING 2000, I Try The Case Tools Briefly, N (11:47)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: And Keep Finding They Waste Our Time. (11:48)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: Better to Find A Pure Drawing Tool and Just Draw. (11:48)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: That's why i perked Up When I Heard Programmers Telling me That Together / J Actually Works. (11:48)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: of course i haven't triedit myself yet :-) so i don't really know. (11:49)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: Other Tools: Printing Whiteboards Are Great. Digital Cameras Are Almost As Good, And (11:49)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Never USED Rational Rose - So Cool !!!!!!!! (11:49) Acockburn said: My Friends Tell Me That The Pixid Software (Probably www.pixid.com) Does a Very Good job of (11:50)
Acockburn said: Cleaning Up The Picture So That You Can Really Use It at Wards. (11:50)
ACOCKBURN said: Other Tools: Configuration Management / Version Control System Is The First Tool After The Compiler That All My Contacts Recommend. (11:50)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: I Think a Case Tool Should Save Analyst's Time (11:50)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: OtherWise, It's a bad Tool (11:51)
ACOCKBURN says: Other Tools: Performance MEASURING TOOL (11:51)
ACOCKBURN says: Other Tools: Lotus Notes Is Very Good To Hold Use Cases, And Also The bug-reports database. (11:51)
Acockburn says: Tools you will notice these tools: (11:52)
ACOCKBURN said: 1. Compiler, Performance Tuning Tool, Helps a Programmer Make Code. (11:52)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: OVER? (11:52)
Acockburn said to Qingzuozhou: 2. Configuration Management Tool: Helps The Team Keep Their Code in Sync. (11:52)
Acockburn said: 3. Lotus Notes: Helps The Team Keep Their Non-Code Exchanges in Sync. (11:53)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: 4.Visio: Helps People Draw Pictures without trauma. (11:53)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: About Case Tools in detail? (11:54)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: 5. Final Tool: get yourself junit, or cppunit, or vbunit, and start MAKING SMALL Regression Tests for (11:54)
Acockburn said: SMALL PIECES OF Your Code. (11:54)
ACOCKBURN said: The People I Talk to who overce Ever start Writing little sets of tests for their code That Are Yey (11:54)
Acockburn said to qingzuozhou: To write and easy to run, (11:54)
ACOCKBURN said: Never Give The Up Again. (11:54) Acockburn said to xkfy: SmartDraw? I don't know it - But Just Use any one Tool That Works Well. (11:55)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Thanks (11:56)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Can I ask THE ORDER TO IMPLEMENT A OO PROJECT? (11:56)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Does It Form A Right Stes: USE Case (Including Requirements), Main Abstract, Layer Define, Architecture Mechnism Define, Class Define, Use Case Realization? (11:56)
Acockburn says: You will notice the completion absence of copy tools in My Tool List. (11:56)
Acockburn said: I Interviewed Project Teams from 1991 To 2001, And i Have Only Tools helped the That The Case Tools helped them. (11:56)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: Yes. Why? (11:56)
Adamli said to Acockburn: Alistair, IS this Your First Time Chat with a group of solidware people in China? (11:57)
ACOCKBURN says: Ask: What Do I Want this Tool to do for me? if The answer is "generate code", Theware of Money. (11:57)
Acockburn said to adamli: if it is some of the other answer, the one of teh other Tools i Mentioned Will Do The Job. (11:57)
Acockburn said to adamli: Hi, Adamli - Yes my first time. (11:58)
Acockburn said to Adamli: I Have Absolutely No IDea WHERE You People Are Sitting, What Your Ages or Backgrounds Are, or Anyhes (11:58)
Adamli said to Acockburn: What's the reason you accept the invitation? (11:58)
Acockburn said to Adamli: All i can do is guess and what to type from the sequence of qustions. (11:58)
Acockburn said to Adamli: Because Umlchina Asked, And i Have Never Done It Before: -) (11:59)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Alistair, if i Have Some Questions to ask you, Can I send email to you? (11:59)
acockburn said adamli: If I had already done it a few times, then I might say I am too busy (11:59) qingzuozhou said acockburn:.. this is first time to me to hear such comment about case tools very intersting Thank you (11:59)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: On Sending Me Email: (11:59)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: i do trying very hard to finish my next book in the next 2 weeks, (12:00)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: SO I will not answer questions. (12:00)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: in the next feew weeks. (12:00)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: After That, I'll Answer a few more. (12:00)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Can We Have your email address, Just the one you registered here? (12:01)
Adamli said to Acockburn: I am Actually in u.. I Was Working for Thoughtworks. (12:01)
Acockburn said to Bucolic: Eventually, The Questions Will Start To Take Up Too Much of My Time, And I'll Write That I can't Answer Any More Questions. (12:01)
Bucolic said to Acockburn: Thanks. (12:01)
Umlchina said to everyone: Thank you all, thank you profssor cockburn, we Had a nice methanne (12:01)
Acockburn said to adamli: That's pretty funny. You know i sprent some time there. (12:02)
Acockburn said to Adamli: How Did You Hear of this Webcast? (12:02)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Thank you. (12:02)
Adamli said to Acockburn: I like your new book. (12:02)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Send Email to Acockburn@aol.com (12:02)
Fuzhong said to Acockburn: Thank you. (12:02)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Also, Read All The Articles on My Web Site: (12:02)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: http://members.aol.com/acockburn (12:02)
Adamli said to Acockburn: i Visit this group and xpchina group a lot. (12:03)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: I put Most of My Articles Up There. My Next Bookis Already Up There in Complete Form (Although 3rd Draft, Not Final Copy) (12:03) Umlchina said to everyone: OK. Webcast is over. everyone can Leave it to continue to communicate, and hope to add more comments. (12:03)
Adamli said to Acockburn: I am Trying to Promote XP and Other Agile Methods in China. (12:03)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: OK, Thanks a Lot (12:03)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: Also Visit www.crystalmethodologies.org (12:03)
Acockburn said to Charles_Y: There is a wiki server there, WHERE we can contact the discussions. (12:04)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: It's happy to see you discuss on this chat room. I hope That i can see you again in the fulure. Thank you (12:04)
Acockburn said to Adamli: Are you in chicago? (12:04)
Adamli said to Acockburn: NO, I am in San Francisco. (12:04)
Acockburn said to Adamli: Send Me Your Email (Offline) And Let's Seehen We'll Be in The Same Place. (12:05)
Adamli said to Acockburn: Will you be interested to have for new book translated into chinese? (12:05)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Ok Time to Go (12:05)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: It's time for me to go. (12:05)
Acockburn said to Umlchina: Thank you for the good quintions. and for assenging so mix. (12:05)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: That Made It Easier. (12:06)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: OK! Good night! Thanks again (12:06)
Bucolic said to everyone: Thanks for your answers. (12:06)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: My Fingers and forermms are vey tired. (12:06)
Acockburn said to UMLChina: Best Wishes to all of you. (12:06)
Acockburn said to UMLCHINA: BYE NOW. (12:06)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: Yes, Two Hours ..... (12:06)
Umlchina said to Acockburn: BYE (12:06)
Charles_y said to Acockburn: Bye, a nice day (12:06)
Qingzuozhou said to Acockburn: It's kind of you really. bye (12:06)
