Translation: Onstab [2004.03.17] from: DMXZONE
We are very happy to publish interview records from Zeldman.com, A List Apart and Web Standard Project. ZELDMAN talked about the standards of various people, standard adoption, why W3C should listen to the voice of the web professional community, and have been mistaken to think George Clooney, and other romantic things.
In DMXZONE and Jeffrey Zeldman, ZELDMAN talked about how Web standard is humanized, and how Web standard projects make recommendations to the development of Macromedia's Dreamweaver MX, as well as inconveniences from George Clooney.
Jeffrey Zeldman is one of the initiators of the Web Standards Project, published a list apart - "For website Maker Services", with New York Design Company and HAPPY Cog, many speeches on Web standards. His new book "Designing With Web Standards" was published by New Riders in May 2003, which is one of the bestsellers of Amazon.com.
From the beginning, how do you get the title of the warrior for the standard?
I am discovering the Web standard and getting along with it in accidents, as they provide better tools that will free from the browser's troubles.
Like other people, I started to treat the web as a visual medium, and the browser has proprietary HTML to control the layout. I also like a Font label like other other designers, I don't know what CSS until Microsoft launched some IE3 that supports CSS. I suddenly found a better design with fewer bandwidth. However, IE3's CSS is inconsistent under various platforms, and Netscape 3 does not support CSS, Netscape JavaScript does not work in IE.
The 4.0 version of the browser is more incompatible, only taken care of the early version of the browser manufacturer, and many of us are unfamiliar. A small number of people in us think should be done together, which is born with Web Standards Project (WASP).
"We only care about whether it can simplify work and improve the ability."
What I want to emphasize is that if there is no profound experience on W3C's idea of Web, many people don't know or don't care about Web standards at all. We only care about whether it can simplify work and improve the ability. We are concerned not theory, but to enhance user experience, suitable for use in a variety of browsers and platforms, equipment, and spend more practical technology. It's so simple, before, now it is still the case.
Browser and WysiwyG product manufacturers no longer see you as a madman who shouts to passers-by to the street. In fact, I have started to seek WASP help and advice. How did this happen?
One of the reasons is that we no longer shout. Once we caught the attention of Microsoft and Netscape, we have become a consultant rather than opponents.
Todd Farhner launched a CSS warrior action in 1998. The task of this organization is to find the top ten CSS errors in the mainstream browser, demonstrate the problem, explaining the correct approach, and briefly explains the correct (CSS) Behavior is the importance of netizens, developers and browser manufacturers themselves. It is like a easy-to-use study and is free to customers. This broadcasted goodwill between WASP and browser designers and provided them to support standard roadmaps.
In addition, although hundreds of millions of people are using web, it is still a small industry. We have some people who develop mainstream browsers are friends. Of course, my friend is going to talk. Some engineers privately agreed that WASP's importance of correcting CSS was fully supported by public standards. So even if the supervisor of the market sector is not communicating with us, some people are willing - and quietly do what they should do, improve the browser's support, whether or not the market supervisor tells them to do this. Why do market departments seem to be actively advocated to support their standards?
This is telling you that the airbag or other product characteristics is the same. Because they have been seen as the expected characteristics that can bring benefits. Browser companies don't have to tell you why they have enhanced support for standards - they estimate that more than-in-one (standard) people have understood the benefits of this.
Also, they have made a lot of work, and there is reason to be proud of this. They are not just the core (designers and developers) in the user, but also benefit the general public, let designers and developers work better, let them get more intense, better use and more convenient experience. .
"A browser company will make a sense of illusion when talking about its standard support. This is a strategy that is competing for each other."
A browser company will make a illusion when it comes to its support for standards. This is a strategy that is competing for each other. On the other hand, less successful companies will tell you that they support the standards, indicating that they can compete with the protagonist; if it supports the standard support more than the more successful company, this will make him a slightly beneficial competitive position, at least This is the case for developers and experts.
Change? When is WASP to believe that you have won this public relations battle? how do you feel?
This signs are everywhere. At the beginning of 1998 or 1999, when Netscape announced his original browser, we started to develop browsers on the standard Gecko rendering engine (this is our strong suggestion), we start thinking, "we It is really feasible. "
In 2000, the situation was a big better. The first generation supports CSS, (X) HTML, ECMAScript and DOM browser finally came out, Opera released in 2000 also has some DOM compatibility issues, but all mainstream browsers support core standards, this is WASP Since its establishment, it has always advocated.
"As the support standard browser is bright, I am sincerely happy and full of hope for the future."
I can't describe the other members of Wasp, that year, as the support standard browser is bright, I am sincerely happy and full of hope for the future. This timing is unusual: global economic tightening, continuously declined IT industry, network company is layoffs or closed closures, in a sluggish atmosphere, we have seen this new media hope, it is going to people's efforts On, develop forward.
Just like I have mentioned, the next stage is to let other designers and developers join. In February 2001, a list apart turned into a CSS layout, and a large number of sites were imitated, and Eric Costello and Owen Briggs were starting to express CSS templates for free. This is really exciting: you can see this transformation is really feasible. Then it is the public site, and finally the big company's website. So I said, in the first few years in Wasp, our hopes seems to be very embarrassing, often feel a bit like Don Quixote. With the end of the 20th century and the arrival of the new thousand years, more and more facts show that people are "accepting it", we expect changes to confirm.
Wasp has been reorganized last year because "countless designers and developers are still using outdated methods for mixing structures and expressions." Why is these web professionals? They are not the last "accept" standard. In the early movement of WASP, if there is no support for thousands of designers and developers, browser manufacturers will change so quickly. Thousands of developers mentioned by WASP are not bragging, but the truth. .
But there are still many web professional groups that cannot "accept" standards unless the browser can truly support standards. So the browser manufacturer is the object we must first convince. We are already doing, and browser has also changed. Next, we should further strengthen the work of mission, sometimes to take some tutorials, sometimes take some very means.
"Does this exercise really convince the old stubborn and throw away Netscape 4? It seems that there is nothing, to be honest, we have never looked like this."
Under the inspiring of this movement, many designers and developers began to adopt new technologies. Just like the trend, the first is the scattered site begins to adopt, then the public site, ultimately a large-scale commercial site like Wired.com and ESPN.NET uses a Web standard to redesign. Does this exercise really convince the old stubborn and throw away Netscape 4? It seems that it is not, to be honest, we have never desired. Does this affect the IT heads of the company or the public site to upgrade their browsers? Maybe, this situation is not much. Focus or the mission of designers and developers, this positioning is relatively feasible.
Therefore, "Committed to Developer's Education" after WASP is reorganized, and it has actually started this. But now I have to take a more moderate way - because the current climate change, we can use a more moderate way.
During reorganization, the organization also started working with tool manufacturers. Because if Dreamweaver can't produce standard code and style, even those experts who have already mastered it, I am afraid that they have no time to take care of it. The WASP Dreamweaver Workgroup led by Rachel Andrew and Drew McLellan helped Macromedia enhanced the standard support of its mainstream web editor. Macromedia is very sensible, good at accepting because they listened to the user group on the standard call. In this way, many Web professionals can "use" Web standards.
Is you advancing the Macromedia request to improve Dreamweamer MX, or did they get contact with WASP?
"The first meeting between our San Francisco Headquarters, is a very friendly talks"
Wasp told the idea to Macromedia, while Macromedia has established contact with the master DREW of DMXzone's high-end writer Rachel Andrew and Dreamweamer community, and one of the founders of Wasp Jeffrey Veen relationship is good. So in their first meeting between our San Francisco Headquarters, it is a very friendly talk.
I would also like to point out that their engineers have been very interested in the standard, and have been in-depth design, which is the ultimate Dreamweaver MX. So we didn't sell things they didn't want; they knew what they were important to their users, we just helped them achieve.
Whether the Web standard raises the threshold (CSS, XHTML, etc.), which causes obstacles to the content of the online release?
Does English hinder people's communication? English has grammar and lexic, and it is difficult to master. Even if my English is very small, when I shouted "Help! Fire!", Everyone will understand.
The standard is a technique that intersects each other and continuous. The more you know, the more things you can do. Even if you are not very proficient in all standards, you can still do a lot. If you have never used JavaScript, suddenly someone wants you to make a complete DOM-based web application, of course, it will not be easy. Similarly, if there is no or very much use of CSS, or occasionally used but not understood, if you want to use CSS to lay out, CSS novices will definitely feel at a loss.
Therefore, the trick to master anything is the side stem. If you have been using a table layout, I haven't used CSS at all, nor I have to rush to say goodbye with the form layout, but you can use the style sheet instead of the font tag. As you have learned, the more you can do. The standard is continuing, not a branch of the dead. The second part of "Designing WITH Web Standards" introduces some tools and how to use it, and the book is introduced before introducing pure CSS layouts, first establish a site with a table and CSS mixing layout. This is to eliminate people's fear, reduce the difficulty of learning through step-by-step learning.
"Dreamweaver can make unrequalked novice design websites, but in the hands of experienced experts to play its ultimate. This is the essence of web development: people who are good at learning is an ideal career."
Everyone can learn these technologies - XHTML is basically the basics you know, just add a few rules, and tools are constantly improving. If you only care about the content rather than the code, or the designer that is not familiar with the underlying code, you can use Dreamweaver's design tools and publishing tools like Six Apart's next-generation TypePad, these tools can help you generate compliance Standard site. If you know more, these tools will naturally play a greater role in your hands. Dreamweaver can make unique novice design websites, but in the hands of experienced experts to play its ultimate. This is the essence of web development: people who are good at learning are an ideal profession. "
What is your favorite architecture, movies, music and pizza?
Rockefeller Center, "North by Northwest", movie music, black olives and fresh garlic.
DMXZONE is located in the Netherlands, orange is the national color of the Netherlands! What do you think about orange?
(Editor Press: ZELDMAN's website design and books are orange, and his personal website is also orange.)
Don't forget, the initial WASP in 1998 was also orange. Orange from my feelings of Wasp. This is also the propaganda consideration - WASP site design is to leave a deep impression in your mind.
I really like this color and integrate it into my personal site. When my website design company happycog.com, I was originally purple, but I didn't have to return to the hometown of happy citrus.
My personal site is no longer orange, at least not the default user style sheet color. It is now a peach white, slightly with past orange traces. However, the ancient HOME button below each page still keeps an orange background, which is very high in the famous button. Therefore, when the author determines the cover cover, this orange iconic picture is borrowed.
Why is this media that makes you fans and investment?
It sounds like it is not marginal, but it is indeed an unknown territory. We have continuously learned new things and new rules on the basis of knowledge, but we have only discovered that our understanding and its rules are indeed too simplistic.
"No
Web is private space. Anyone can publish it on it and can always find the audience. The threshold on other media's money is much higher, and there is also a high technical barrier. You may think about a great movie, but your idea can be achieved almost zero. Even Spike Lee and Martin Scorsese have to make the movie to take a chance to shoot according to their ideas. No one stops you from establishing a site, and no one makes you sure to build in some model, or limit your content. When you introduce yourself on your own website, you look very easy. You used to be a musician (I have always thought that this is the most artistic form). As a symbol of technical experts and W3C, is this the reason for many web designers? In fact, in their opinion, you are a cheerful, very emotional superior artist.
I am thinking so. Some people have developed Web technology, and their words can only understand, but the designers can't understand. And they are very interested in things that designers care. Some people have written some articles on design and technology, but they don't have practical experience in design or technical applications unless this is not associated with what they have written.
I am a designer, and I can clearly express my thoughts, which is very helpful to demonstrating the customer, and also helps the knowledge in the design area. In WASP and ALA and my new book, I hope to share with you about Web standards. There is no difficult technology and theory - these are the specialists of experts, and they are also different from professional writers that are involved in design or technology. I know how to solve design problems with a web standard, but write it out. Is this very meaningful? (Editor: Of course! Thank you.)
About FLASH: Is it a sword of evil or a bright messenger?
"Web standard is not a religion, but a tool that can be enriched."
It is a powerful tool, especially in the hands of the artist who has mastered script skills. Some standard supporters have prejudice to Flash. But the Web standard is not a religion, but a tool that can enrich the creation. XML plus some things that CSS and DOM do, Flash can do it. Experts who have inherent prejudice for flash should look at Chopping Block or One9ine works, is it true, or no more interesting?
Some people who have a very good deeds are quite a whisper for Flash, I see the problem that I can't ignore you. Macromedia is specifically mentioned in the MX version publishing and is doing some work. From the perspective of affinity, the challenge facing Flash is how to provide the same information and similar experience for users who cannot watch SWF formats? If you understand the Flash MX, this part can be done, and a similar experience is another thing, in some cases, it is impossible to achieve, just like the newspaper unable to provide a movie.
From a standard perspective, the main problem with Flash or other embedded technologies is how to embed it into the web, which can both work normally and can be verified? The answer is basically unable to do.
Drew McLELLAN demonstrates us to embed Flash into a web page with standard XHTML Object elements and legitimate, W3C-approved properties. This is the correct way to embed web pages, and there is no problem with most users and most browsers, but sometimes I will have problems under IE / Windows and Mozilla. Object This label has been in the mid-1990s, and each browser should fully support it ... but actually does not necessarily.
"Many flash artists, even those artists who are very interested in Web standards seem to be more willing to use the exclusive non-standard default" release "code produced by Flash." Creating a developer based on Flash-based user experience probably not want to verify that the browser is Support standards to find trouble. In the foreseen, many Flash artists, even those artists who are very concerned about Web standards seem to be more willing to use the exclusive non-standard default "release" code generated by Flash. This is really a pity. In fact, it is not only Flash, and a similar problem will also be encountered when embedding other multimedia objects.
In order to embed the very popular technology such as Flash, people have to use some side of the left and black Koke skills, whether W3C can't keep people? (I thought here about the panic about the latest XHTML 2.)
I can't think so. W3C is looking at this problem from a scientific perspective, how should Web build? What kind of philosophy should be made when we have a consistent, reasonable architecture for this powerful media? The designers and developers have been exactly different from their daily work: what should I do? The time of charge is coming, this problem must be solved today.
The relationship between these two concepts is relatively tense, as long as W3C can listen to non-liberalists when they set standards, this tension may have a good ending. That's why W3C will announce their ideas in the form of a draft, listen to people's opinions and feedback, and make necessary modifications. For example, the latest XHTML 2 draft clearly shows that W3C is willing to listen to everyone's views. Maybe not listening to user opinions like Macromedia and Adobe, but it is listening after all.
"W3C does not want to compromise this practice in this practice, will only make people separated from it and its standards, which will be great sorrow."
In my book, I talked about why W3C didn't include an Embed element in an HTML or XHTML standard, and this tag actually used in countless websites. I hope they can overcome the commence of EM BED and incorporate it into it. The formal standard is just like the XHTML Transitional standards allow BGColor.
W3C does not make compromises in practice in practice, will only make people have a uniformity of it and its standards, which will be a great tragedy.
If you can score from 1 to 10, do you think you can do your expert?
6 minutes. I don't have Palm Pilot, I prefer the graphical interface of the Mac, not the command line interface. I am not a programmer or a background developer. I haven't tidden yet so far, but my life seems to be quite full. I like banknotes instead of electronic money, I will still use a pen when necessary.
On the other hand, I handle XHTML, CSS, RSS, and JavaScript in the text editor. As early as Photoshop considering the Web release, I helped iConFactory.com's Craig Hockenberry developed the first plugin to handle web colors. My Email filter code is more complicated than some applications. I started to design a webpage since 1995. I can understand Tim Bray without reading subtitles.
So I can probably get 7 points.
Does anyone have to sign you?
Yes, but some people mistakenly regarded me as Grrge Clooney.
"I often mistakenly think that it is George Clooney."
Jeffrey ZELDMAN
George CLOONEY
That each other, Jeffrey. The last question: What are the most beautiful things you have seen today?
Carrie, when she just woke up. Editor's Press: Carrie Bickner (the wife of Zeldman) is a digital information design deputy authority of the New York Public Library Digital Pavilion, which is also the author of "Web Design On A ShoString". This book will not be published by New Rider Publishing Company. ]
Is this glass of water or half empty?
Overflow.
Thank you for Jeffrey.
Copyright © 2001 DMXZONE.com, All Rights Reserved.
More info
ZELDMAN.COM - DAILY Report Web Standard Project A List Apart Ryan Carver Interview: Recreation Lee Jeans Website CSS Zen Garden Master Dave Shea Interview
postscript
ZELDMAN.COM revised. Designing With Web Standards Reflatable: Applying Web Standard for Design in May published by Electronic Industry Press. [2004.05.05]
